Episode 557: Jessica Kerr and Avdi Grimm

About this episode

What does it mean to be a software developer when writing code is no longer the central part of the job? Jessica Kerr and Avdi Grimm join David Hill for a conversation about the changing work of software engineering—and how to navigate that change without losing the curiosity, satisfaction, and human connection that drew us to it. They begin by examining why AI-assisted programming differs from AI-generated art and entertainment, including the role of tests and measurable feedback in evaluating software. From there, Jessica and Avdi discuss the challenge to developer identity when tools can handle more of the implementation, and the opportunities that opens for building useful things, exploring neglected projects, and focusing on product decisions. The conversation gets practical with a look at overseeing AI-generated code. Avdi describes his use of specialized reviewer agents and repeated auditing, while Jessica explains how developers can define correctness, provide feedback loops, and get clearer visibility into changes. They also explore why inconsistent code and technical debt create friction for agents, and how token usage and evaluations can help measure the cost of th